1 00:00:10,940 --> 00:00:08,320 on this episode of skeptic Oh 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:10,950 mathematician and chaos theory pioneer 3 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:15,030 dr. Ralph Abraham chaos theory presents 4 00:00:20,779 --> 00:00:17,910 a lot of problems when it comes to 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:20,789 measurement which is really the the nuts 6 00:00:26,599 --> 00:00:23,130 and bolts of science in other words if 7 00:00:29,689 --> 00:00:26,609 you know the state of the world exactly 8 00:00:31,939 --> 00:00:29,699 well almost exactly with a slight error 9 00:00:34,610 --> 00:00:31,949 then you cannot make a long-term 10 00:00:37,580 --> 00:00:34,620 prediction so we don't know the global 11 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:37,590 climate warming for example on the basis 12 00:00:43,549 --> 00:00:40,170 of mathematical models because the 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:43,559 mathematical models are chaotic in this 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:46,770 technical sense that the flap of a 15 00:00:49,790 --> 00:00:48,570 butterfly wing would make a huge 16 00:00:53,689 --> 00:00:49,800 difference in the prediction of the 17 00:00:55,580 --> 00:00:53,699 model long term now as we take this kind 18 00:00:58,459 --> 00:00:55,590 of mathematical model for complex 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:00:58,469 systems upstairs into the realm of 20 00:01:02,810 --> 00:01:00,050 consciousness and then obviously 21 00:01:05,230 --> 00:01:02,820 consciousness has a lot of parts for one 22 00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:05,240 thing if you think of the individual 23 00:01:10,789 --> 00:01:07,950 consciousness of six billion people on 24 00:01:13,850 --> 00:01:10,799 the planet being somehow knitted 25 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:13,860 together through communication by 26 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:16,530 reading writing cell phones worldwide 27 00:01:23,060 --> 00:01:21,090 web etc into a complex system then 28 00:01:25,130 --> 00:01:23,070 obviously that complex system is going 29 00:01:38,230 --> 00:01:25,140 to have very chaotic behavior 30 00:01:42,230 --> 00:01:40,580 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 31 00:01:44,510 --> 00:01:42,240 controversial science with leading 32 00:01:46,730 --> 00:01:44,520 researchers thinkers and their critics 33 00:01:47,420 --> 00:01:46,740 I'm your host Alex Karras and on this 34 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:47,430 episode 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:50,130 dr. Ralph Abraham joins us to talk about 36 00:01:56,030 --> 00:01:53,250 chaos theory mathematic and building a 37 00:01:57,770 --> 00:01:56,040 better model of consciousness now you 38 00:01:59,840 --> 00:01:57,780 may remember that we heard from Ralph 39 00:02:01,940 --> 00:01:59,850 just a few episodes ago when we looked 40 00:02:04,010 --> 00:02:01,950 back at the dialogues between Terence 41 00:02:06,620 --> 00:02:04,020 Mckenna Rupert Sheldrake and Ralph 42 00:02:07,999 --> 00:02:06,630 Abraham but I was so intrigued by some 43 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:08,009 of the things that he had to say that I 44 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:10,709 wanted to contact him and get a full 45 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:14,580 interview and I did and here it is today 46 00:02:19,250 --> 00:02:16,890 we welcome dr. Ralph Abraham to skeptic 47 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:19,260 Oh dr. Abraham is a very highly regarded 48 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:21,090 professor of mathematics at the 49 00:02:25,850 --> 00:02:23,040 University of California at Santa Cruz 50 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:25,860 and a pioneer in the area of chaos 51 00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:28,170 theory now if you had a chance to listen 52 00:02:33,949 --> 00:02:31,920 to episode 196 of skeptic oh and our 53 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:33,959 look back at those very interesting 54 00:02:39,949 --> 00:02:36,810 dialogues between Terence Mckenna Rupert 55 00:02:42,350 --> 00:02:39,959 Sheldrake and Ralph Abraham then you got 56 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:42,360 a sampling of some of the deep thinking 57 00:02:46,790 --> 00:02:44,850 and the range of topics that this guy 58 00:02:48,590 --> 00:02:46,800 gets into so I thought it'd be 59 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:48,600 interesting to have a full interview 60 00:02:53,390 --> 00:02:50,730 with them and I'm just delighted that 61 00:02:56,259 --> 00:02:53,400 you agreed to join me thanks so much and 62 00:02:58,850 --> 00:02:56,269 welcome to skeptic oh happy to be here 63 00:03:02,810 --> 00:02:58,860 well you know where I thought we'd start 64 00:03:05,540 --> 00:03:02,820 is math and mathematics because it's 65 00:03:09,470 --> 00:03:05,550 obviously been a big part of your life 66 00:03:10,970 --> 00:03:09,480 and in listening to some of the 67 00:03:13,610 --> 00:03:10,980 interviews you've done I was fascinated 68 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:13,620 it's just the way you talk about your 69 00:03:19,310 --> 00:03:17,450 personal connection to mathematics and 70 00:03:21,050 --> 00:03:19,320 mathematical thinking because I think 71 00:03:23,930 --> 00:03:21,060 you know as someone who isn't in the 72 00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:23,940 field it's almost like gosh what is this 73 00:03:28,340 --> 00:03:25,560 guy really talking about what is it 74 00:03:31,850 --> 00:03:28,350 about math can you maybe get us a little 75 00:03:33,860 --> 00:03:31,860 bit closer to the mathematical mind in 76 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:33,870 general and maybe how how a 77 00:03:41,410 --> 00:03:38,250 mathematician thinks yes okay I fell in 78 00:03:44,330 --> 00:03:41,420 love with mathematics around age 15 and 79 00:03:48,050 --> 00:03:44,340 since then until the present moment has 80 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:48,060 really been the dominant thing and my 81 00:03:52,730 --> 00:03:50,670 frustration is that so 82 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:52,740 few people are willing to think 83 00:03:58,309 --> 00:03:56,250 mathematically are afraid of the 84 00:04:00,440 --> 00:03:58,319 language of mathematics have had a bad 85 00:04:03,589 --> 00:04:00,450 experience with mathematics in school or 86 00:04:09,340 --> 00:04:03,599 for whatever reason haven't been 87 00:04:12,410 --> 00:04:09,350 rendered and unable to go into this 88 00:04:14,390 --> 00:04:12,420 space so when I tried to talk about 89 00:04:18,470 --> 00:04:14,400 whatever or since I'm thinking about it 90 00:04:22,810 --> 00:04:18,480 mathematically and having a practical 91 00:04:25,370 --> 00:04:22,820 problem in communicating so after 92 00:04:30,010 --> 00:04:25,380 beginning in mathematics at some years 93 00:04:33,770 --> 00:04:30,020 passed before I discovered this this 94 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:33,780 illness called mathematical anxiety or 95 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:38,160 the math avoidance reflex and this is by 96 00:04:44,780 --> 00:04:41,370 now very well acknowledged in education 97 00:04:47,450 --> 00:04:44,790 circles that something is wrong with the 98 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:47,460 way mathematics is taught with the 99 00:04:53,420 --> 00:04:51,690 result that very clever people go 100 00:04:55,700 --> 00:04:53,430 through school and don't quite get it 101 00:04:57,860 --> 00:04:55,710 even if later on they get a Nobel Prize 102 00:05:01,130 --> 00:04:57,870 in Physics or something there are just a 103 00:05:05,060 --> 00:05:01,140 few people that for some some personal 104 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:05,070 accidental reason escape the handicap of 105 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:08,910 math anxiety so I was lucky I think 106 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:10,890 because of my mother's interest in 107 00:05:18,140 --> 00:05:15,020 mathematics that I escaped this stigma 108 00:05:21,740 --> 00:05:18,150 anyway mathematical thinking is in any 109 00:05:25,540 --> 00:05:21,750 case somewhat difficult because it is 110 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:25,550 less related to ordinary experience than 111 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:28,650 scientific thinking artistic thinking 112 00:05:36,409 --> 00:05:32,930 and and other types of intelligence 113 00:05:39,620 --> 00:05:36,419 here's an interesting quote of yours 114 00:05:41,630 --> 00:05:39,630 you said mathematics is completely 115 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:41,640 separate in its philosophical outlook 116 00:05:46,629 --> 00:05:44,310 and in the personality the people who 117 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:46,639 pursue it who are sometimes 118 00:05:51,050 --> 00:05:49,830 diametrically opposite to scientists 119 00:05:53,659 --> 00:05:51,060 what did you mean I think a lot of 120 00:05:55,550 --> 00:05:53,669 people would find that surprising well 121 00:05:59,060 --> 00:05:55,560 it's surprising because for some reason 122 00:06:03,080 --> 00:05:59,070 math and science had been linked in the 123 00:06:04,460 --> 00:06:03,090 popular imagination as closely related 124 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:04,470 areas 125 00:06:09,790 --> 00:06:07,650 thought so in the ecology of ideas there 126 00:06:13,180 --> 00:06:09,800 are the different subjects like 127 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:13,190 anthropology history and so on these 128 00:06:19,030 --> 00:06:16,710 domains can be thought of as nations in 129 00:06:22,370 --> 00:06:19,040 a kind of a world geometry of thought 130 00:06:24,730 --> 00:06:22,380 popularly people think of math and 131 00:06:27,620 --> 00:06:24,740 science being in in the same corner 132 00:06:30,950 --> 00:06:27,630 maybe because it's true that science 133 00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:30,960 some kinds of styles require a lot of 134 00:06:36,580 --> 00:06:32,850 mathematics other kinds don't 135 00:06:39,530 --> 00:06:36,590 for example the taxonomy of plants how 136 00:06:41,330 --> 00:06:39,540 different plants can be recognized by 137 00:06:44,930 --> 00:06:41,340 their physical characteristics and 138 00:06:46,730 --> 00:06:44,940 sorting into different bins it doesn't 139 00:06:48,530 --> 00:06:46,740 really require very much mathematics it 140 00:06:50,450 --> 00:06:48,540 requires a lot of science which is you 141 00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:50,460 have to be a careful observer of nature 142 00:06:56,510 --> 00:06:54,270 and take good notes and learn the 143 00:06:59,360 --> 00:06:56,520 literature in the field and all that so 144 00:07:02,750 --> 00:06:59,370 there is a letter submit a certain 145 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:02,760 overlap between math and science but I 146 00:07:06,740 --> 00:07:04,410 maintain that they are fundamentally 147 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:06,750 different in the outlook and the kind of 148 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:09,630 people that pursue them in fact many 149 00:07:13,790 --> 00:07:11,850 times people ask if I'm a scientist or 150 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:13,800 they ask me a question about science I 151 00:07:18,740 --> 00:07:16,350 have to say well I know because I'm not 152 00:07:20,930 --> 00:07:18,750 a scientist and not only I haven't 153 00:07:23,030 --> 00:07:20,940 studied that but you know I've read 154 00:07:25,340 --> 00:07:23,040 about it but I don't really get it 155 00:07:25,909 --> 00:07:25,350 because my way of thinking is it's so 156 00:07:27,980 --> 00:07:25,919 different 157 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:27,990 fascinating let's dive in there a little 158 00:07:34,340 --> 00:07:31,530 bit as a mathematician and as someone 159 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:34,350 who's interested in consciousness how 160 00:07:40,730 --> 00:07:36,930 might those go forward together how can 161 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:40,740 the models and model building abilities 162 00:07:47,770 --> 00:07:43,290 of the mathematician aid us in 163 00:07:49,780 --> 00:07:47,780 understanding this consciousness enigma 164 00:07:52,990 --> 00:07:49,790 well exactly 165 00:07:58,490 --> 00:07:53,000 model building I think is the key idea 166 00:08:00,440 --> 00:07:58,500 where mathematics has assisted the 167 00:08:03,860 --> 00:08:00,450 development of science and the history 168 00:08:08,090 --> 00:08:03,870 of science of the past 2,000 years let 169 00:08:12,190 --> 00:08:08,100 us say from my view is largely in in 170 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:12,200 model building however there's a certain 171 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:14,950 very narrow 172 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:17,770 model which has for a long time 173 00:08:22,950 --> 00:08:20,410 predominated as the successful model 174 00:08:27,150 --> 00:08:22,960 building strategy in the sciences and 175 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:27,160 this has to do with those fancy formulas 176 00:08:31,340 --> 00:08:29,110 that you see no low prize winners are 177 00:08:35,490 --> 00:08:31,350 writing on the blackboard in their Nobel 178 00:08:40,550 --> 00:08:35,500 lectures and and so on a lot of symbol 179 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:40,560 symbolic equations based on algebra and 180 00:08:49,850 --> 00:08:44,080 calculus mathematical analysis and so on 181 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:49,860 and quantum mechanics general relativity 182 00:08:58,190 --> 00:08:52,420 electricity and magnetism these major 183 00:09:00,660 --> 00:08:58,200 branches of physics have a mathematical 184 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:00,670 foundation like Maxwell's equation 185 00:09:09,210 --> 00:09:02,800 Einstein equation the Schrodinger 186 00:09:11,070 --> 00:09:09,220 equation these equations belong to an 187 00:09:14,970 --> 00:09:11,080 area of mathematics which is nowadays 188 00:09:18,030 --> 00:09:14,980 seen as being a very small area so we 189 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:18,040 have let us say in global analysis 190 00:09:24,170 --> 00:09:20,110 so-called a dynamical Systems Theory we 191 00:09:26,580 --> 00:09:24,180 have completely enormous ly more general 192 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:26,590 strategies for building models in which 193 00:09:31,980 --> 00:09:29,050 there are no equations and which can 194 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:31,990 only be explored with computer 195 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:34,420 simulation and in fact there are 196 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:36,310 computer simulations for which the model 197 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:40,150 isn't even known as in neural neural 198 00:09:46,050 --> 00:09:43,090 network theory for example we we get the 199 00:09:48,420 --> 00:09:46,060 computer to improve its model maybe we 200 00:09:50,220 --> 00:09:48,430 give a starting point and then we get it 201 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:50,230 to improve the model by testing its 202 00:09:56,340 --> 00:09:52,870 behavior if it does the job well st. 203 00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:56,350 crashing English language or the human 204 00:09:59,970 --> 00:09:57,850 genome or something like that within 205 00:10:03,570 --> 00:09:59,980 give it a carrot and otherwise we'd give 206 00:10:06,630 --> 00:10:03,580 it a slop and so a learning algorithm 207 00:10:09,750 --> 00:10:06,640 produces a working program that no human 208 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:09,760 has ever seen exist in the computer and 209 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:12,160 it is a successful model for a whole 210 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:14,770 branch of science which is not based on 211 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:17,590 the classical mathematical methods of 212 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:19,570 ordinary and partial differential 213 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:22,930 equations the binomial theorem factoring 214 00:10:28,770 --> 00:10:26,800 polynomials trigonometric functions 215 00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:28,780 Fourier analysis and all 216 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:31,030 enormous and wonderful machinery of 217 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:33,610 classical mathematics which provided the 218 00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:36,130 mathematical be essential framework and 219 00:10:41,970 --> 00:10:38,590 foundation for all the current branches 220 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:41,980 of physics so we have more general since 221 00:10:47,610 --> 00:10:44,410 especially the computer revolution we 222 00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:47,620 have more and better methods of model 223 00:10:50,780 --> 00:10:48,160 building 224 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:50,790 I think of fractal geometry for example 225 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:54,730 you know Galileo said he was you know 226 00:11:02,550 --> 00:10:57,730 religious Christian kind of person in 227 00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:02,560 his time around the year 1600 and he 228 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:05,680 said if you if you want to know the mind 229 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:08,830 of God then you have to read the book 230 00:11:14,370 --> 00:11:11,680 that God wrote and that book is nature 231 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:14,380 and nature is written God read wrote it 232 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:16,330 in the language of mathematics and by 233 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:19,690 that I mean he writes circles triangles 234 00:11:25,620 --> 00:11:22,210 line segments and so on in other words 235 00:11:28,260 --> 00:11:25,630 all the paraphernalia of geometry known 236 00:11:31,010 --> 00:11:28,270 in his time that he imagined that that 237 00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:31,020 was the language of nature suddenly 238 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:33,790 computer evolution comes along suddenly 239 00:11:38,220 --> 00:11:36,190 after that another equally important 240 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:38,230 revolution the computer graphic 241 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:40,510 revolution suddenly it's like a 242 00:11:45,180 --> 00:11:42,370 microscope or a telescope has been 243 00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:45,190 invented in which we can look into a 244 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:48,520 certain kind of shape and computer 245 00:11:53,490 --> 00:11:51,010 simulation and discover fractals and 246 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:53,500 then we study we see all kinds of 247 00:12:00,870 --> 00:11:55,810 beautiful colored fractal patterns that 248 00:12:04,079 --> 00:12:00,880 are self-similar in all scales and with 249 00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:04,089 that enlightenment we look away from the 250 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:05,980 computer screen and again in nature and 251 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:09,250 there we see the litter on the forest 252 00:12:13,470 --> 00:12:11,710 floor we see the shape of clouds and 253 00:12:15,930 --> 00:12:13,480 mountain scene in silhouette we see 254 00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:15,940 fractals we see that nature is actually 255 00:12:21,570 --> 00:12:18,040 a book written in a language that 256 00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:21,580 Galileo didn't know he had no idea and 257 00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:23,260 since he didn't know and he couldn't see 258 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:25,680 these things in nature were invisible 259 00:12:30,210 --> 00:12:28,330 until the cognitive apparatus was 260 00:12:32,430 --> 00:12:30,220 revealed for the first time into the 261 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:32,440 collective human mind and then we look 262 00:12:40,980 --> 00:12:35,530 in nature and we see a whole lot more in 263 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:40,990 in this way we see an example of model 264 00:12:45,329 --> 00:12:42,610 building in nature is so sick 265 00:12:47,790 --> 00:12:45,339 oh but it can make images of nature in 266 00:12:50,310 --> 00:12:47,800 science fiction films and and the like 267 00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:50,320 that are almost indistinguishable on the 268 00:12:56,970 --> 00:12:53,260 resolution of a photograph from the real 269 00:12:58,800 --> 00:12:56,980 thing and this model building is all 270 00:13:01,019 --> 00:12:58,810 going forward with a kind of model 271 00:13:03,690 --> 00:13:01,029 building technology a branch of 272 00:13:06,269 --> 00:13:03,700 mathematics fractal geometry that was 273 00:13:09,090 --> 00:13:06,279 totally unknown before the Year 1975 274 00:13:11,220 --> 00:13:09,100 yeah that's that's amazing and let's 275 00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:11,230 dive into that all the way into it and 276 00:13:16,980 --> 00:13:15,040 talk about God if you will because on 277 00:13:20,060 --> 00:13:16,990 the last episode of skeptic oh we had a 278 00:13:22,740 --> 00:13:20,070 chance to talk with neuroscientist and 279 00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:22,750 parapsychology researcher dr. Diane 280 00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:25,120 Powell and she's investigating some of 281 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:26,950 these questions of consciousness by 282 00:13:31,319 --> 00:13:29,529 looking at and working with savants 283 00:13:33,329 --> 00:13:31,329 which i think is very interesting and 284 00:13:35,460 --> 00:13:33,339 maybe has some parallels but anyways we 285 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:35,470 got to talking about consciousness and 286 00:13:39,630 --> 00:13:37,690 whether there was some order of 287 00:13:41,310 --> 00:13:39,640 consciousness which of course is really 288 00:13:43,889 --> 00:13:41,320 just kind of an intellectual way of 289 00:13:45,449 --> 00:13:43,899 getting back to the Galileo thing and 290 00:13:47,220 --> 00:13:45,459 talking about God really if there's an 291 00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:47,230 ordered consciousness but anyways I 292 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:50,740 asked her whether she thought that her 293 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:52,570 conclusion was that there was some kind 294 00:13:58,380 --> 00:13:54,610 of hierarchical order to consciousness 295 00:14:00,900 --> 00:13:58,390 and she said yes and that chaos theory 296 00:14:04,139 --> 00:14:00,910 was one of the things that she felt 297 00:14:06,810 --> 00:14:04,149 points us in that direction so you may 298 00:14:09,930 --> 00:14:06,820 be touched on it a little bit but could 299 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:09,940 you tell us a little bit first of all 300 00:14:14,819 --> 00:14:12,610 what chaos theory is and this thing 301 00:14:17,250 --> 00:14:14,829 called the butterfly effect and stuff 302 00:14:19,759 --> 00:14:17,260 like that and whether or not you think 303 00:14:23,069 --> 00:14:19,769 it does point us towards that 304 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:23,079 hierarchical structure of consciousness 305 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:27,490 you bet yeah it's it's not a really 306 00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:30,910 difficult story chaos theory you know is 307 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:35,380 enormous development explosion of new 308 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:39,640 ideas discoveries and in in the area of 309 00:14:44,519 --> 00:14:42,130 mathematics especially computational 310 00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:44,529 mathematics it's going on it's 311 00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:46,990 derivative of the computer revolution 312 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:50,320 and the computer graphic revolution so 313 00:14:56,340 --> 00:14:56,050 can theory began you know people trace 314 00:14:59,310 --> 00:14:56,350 it 315 00:15:02,720 --> 00:14:59,320 to portray a century ago in a kind of a 316 00:15:06,060 --> 00:15:02,730 theoretical development he had actually 317 00:15:10,110 --> 00:15:06,070 Hakurei was a servant okay he's one of 318 00:15:13,380 --> 00:15:10,120 the original mathematical supplants that 319 00:15:15,530 --> 00:15:13,390 was studied by psychologists so a porter 320 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:15,540 a was one of the most prolific 321 00:15:20,730 --> 00:15:17,530 mathematicians of all time 322 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:20,740 look 500 pages hundred books died at the 323 00:15:27,330 --> 00:15:23,010 age of 52 I mean he's a incredible 324 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:27,340 person so the story he told in the book 325 00:15:32,220 --> 00:15:28,990 I'm a psychology of mathematical 326 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:32,230 invention business I was headed for a 327 00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:35,650 picnic with my family we were standing 328 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:38,590 in the bus stop waiting for the bus I 329 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:41,290 had been working on the problem I was 330 00:15:45,270 --> 00:15:42,970 frustrated I couldn't prove this theorem 331 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:45,280 and I was not thinking about it we were 332 00:15:50,970 --> 00:15:48,070 on the way to her picnic when I put my 333 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:50,980 foot on the step of the bus to go up the 334 00:15:56,250 --> 00:15:53,290 solution to this problem popped into my 335 00:15:57,540 --> 00:15:56,260 mind I was so sure it was right and I 336 00:16:00,120 --> 00:15:57,550 didn't think about it for another minute 337 00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:00,130 when Rock went on a picnic so in this 338 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:04,380 flash of illumination on previously 339 00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:07,710 completely unknown mathematical fact 340 00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:10,740 emerged into his mind he first saw 341 00:16:15,420 --> 00:16:13,390 something that turned out to be right 342 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:15,430 and I have had this experience and many 343 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:17,290 mathematicians have this experience and 344 00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:19,690 it's not the same as the scientific 345 00:16:23,970 --> 00:16:22,150 approach where you probe nature with all 346 00:16:26,580 --> 00:16:23,980 the instruments you've got with your 347 00:16:30,030 --> 00:16:26,590 with your voltmeter with your chemical 348 00:16:31,710 --> 00:16:30,040 kit and and so on it was a completely 349 00:16:34,980 --> 00:16:31,720 different thing where mathematical 350 00:16:37,770 --> 00:16:34,990 knowledge comes from that is gradually 351 00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:37,780 revealed over the course of thousands of 352 00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:41,350 years maybe more than thirty thousand 353 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:44,350 years of mathematical discovery of 354 00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:46,690 different bits of things that end up 355 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:48,540 actually fitting all together and 356 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:54,490 including a small subset many models for 357 00:16:59,490 --> 00:16:57,130 natural phenomenon isn't there also a 358 00:17:00,900 --> 00:16:59,500 connection there I think back to a point 359 00:17:02,940 --> 00:17:00,910 you were making earlier in the 360 00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:02,950 difference between the mathematical I 361 00:17:06,510 --> 00:17:05,230 guess approach and the scientific 362 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:06,520 approach 363 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:09,370 chaos theory presents a lot of problems 364 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:11,650 when it comes to measurement which is 365 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:14,770 really the the nuts and bolts of science 366 00:17:20,010 --> 00:17:17,110 me chaos theory kind of throws into 367 00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:20,020 question the whole idea of measurement 368 00:17:25,949 --> 00:17:23,500 and how measurement really works or how 369 00:17:28,050 --> 00:17:25,959 effective it can really be but maybe we 370 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:28,060 better back up and give people a sense 371 00:17:32,610 --> 00:17:31,210 for how chaos theory bring it down to 372 00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:32,620 earth in a way that they can understand 373 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:34,360 maybe the butterfly effect or or 374 00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:36,090 something like that 375 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:40,240 well yes I got carried away with the 376 00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:42,730 importance of the computer revolution in 377 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:45,840 terms of new mathematical ideas and 378 00:17:53,460 --> 00:17:49,690 chaos theory is just was one of them was 379 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:53,470 one of the first revelations of the 380 00:17:59,870 --> 00:17:54,910 computer revolution 381 00:18:03,600 --> 00:17:59,880 so this first observation took place in 382 00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:03,610 1961 so this is some 80 years or so 383 00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:06,520 after poor Corey had an idea in 384 00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:12,060 intuition that was subsequently 385 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:15,840 validated by a computer discovery in 386 00:18:22,290 --> 00:18:20,050 1961 so at that time computers had been 387 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:22,300 around for a while 388 00:18:29,490 --> 00:18:24,970 analog and digital computers of great 389 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:29,500 importance in world war ii and folly and 390 00:18:35,490 --> 00:18:31,990 while studying mathematical model with 391 00:18:37,170 --> 00:18:35,500 the computer in the Department of 392 00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:37,180 Electrical Engineering in Kyoto 393 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:39,940 University this first observer of 394 00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:42,970 chaotic phenomena in a mathematical 395 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:47,500 model Yoshi later professor and graduate 396 00:18:56,790 --> 00:18:52,330 student Electrical Engineering he saw 397 00:18:59,730 --> 00:18:56,800 this that subsequently known by a lot of 398 00:19:01,740 --> 00:18:59,740 people as this metaphor of the butterfly 399 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:01,750 effect that the flap of the butterfly's 400 00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:04,450 wings in Brazil could precipitate a 401 00:19:12,690 --> 00:19:09,270 tornado in western New Jersey so this 402 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:12,700 this idea has as you suggested an 403 00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:16,570 important implication for science that 404 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:18,340 has to do with measurement because it 405 00:19:24,910 --> 00:19:20,330 says the flap of the boat 406 00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:24,920 in other words if you know the state of 407 00:19:31,390 --> 00:19:28,160 the world exactly well almost exactly 408 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:31,400 with a slight error then you cannot make 409 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:33,650 a long-term prediction so we don't know 410 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:35,930 the global climate warming for example 411 00:19:41,770 --> 00:19:38,570 on the basis of mathematical models 412 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:41,780 because the mathematical models are 413 00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:44,690 chaotic in the stack technical sense 414 00:19:49,450 --> 00:19:47,840 that the flap of a butterfly wing would 415 00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:49,460 make a huge difference in the prediction 416 00:19:54,250 --> 00:19:51,500 of the model long term there would be 417 00:19:56,530 --> 00:19:54,260 the global warming our global cooling 418 00:19:59,350 --> 00:19:56,540 but you couldn't tell for sure because 419 00:20:02,020 --> 00:19:59,360 you can't measure the state of the the 420 00:20:04,330 --> 00:20:02,030 world the atmospheric chemistry the 421 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:04,340 insulation of the Sun and so on you 422 00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:05,810 can't measure it all with perfect 423 00:20:14,830 --> 00:20:12,020 accuracy and the experience of dynamical 424 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:14,840 systems has finally observed and 425 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:16,850 discovered with computer graphics in 426 00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:21,850 1961 and subsequently that the slightest 427 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:26,060 error in the measurement means a huge 428 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:28,910 error in the long term behavior that 429 00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:33,890 means that this new style of model 430 00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:36,230 building had been bragging about is 431 00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:38,030 actually no good for long term 432 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:40,550 prediction it is good for kind of 433 00:20:47,050 --> 00:20:43,760 understanding complex systems so this is 434 00:20:48,970 --> 00:20:47,060 why I'm gonna connect with understanding 435 00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:48,980 of consciousness now the hierarchical 436 00:20:56,830 --> 00:20:52,670 structure of consciousness that models 437 00:20:58,420 --> 00:20:56,840 for climate complex systems in the sense 438 00:21:01,150 --> 00:20:58,430 there are many different parts there's 439 00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:01,160 the solar radiation there is the 440 00:21:07,690 --> 00:21:04,640 atmospheric chemistry there is the 441 00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:07,700 activity of humans creating heat on the 442 00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:13,300 planet on the surface and changing the 443 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:15,560 reflectivity of the surface of the 444 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:17,810 planet and by building a lot of 445 00:21:24,550 --> 00:21:19,250 buildings with aluminum roofs or 446 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:24,560 whatever that the complex system in that 447 00:21:30,670 --> 00:21:27,950 sense when you try to model it 448 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:30,680 mathematically always results in a 449 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:33,050 chaotic dynamical system so the 450 00:21:36,670 --> 00:21:33,890 understand 451 00:21:39,370 --> 00:21:36,680 of chaos theory has studied by 452 00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:39,380 mathematicians beginning in 1961 and 453 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:43,960 ongoing in the present time this 454 00:21:49,030 --> 00:21:46,310 understanding technical knowledge of 455 00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:49,040 chaotic dynamical systems has practical 456 00:21:54,790 --> 00:21:51,710 significance when we try to model a 457 00:21:58,330 --> 00:21:54,800 complex system because the complex 458 00:22:00,840 --> 00:21:58,340 system will behave behave chaotically so 459 00:22:04,090 --> 00:22:00,850 before the understanding of chaos theory 460 00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:04,100 1961 and so on mental models for complex 461 00:22:08,380 --> 00:22:05,600 systems were no good that they are 462 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:08,390 always resulted in chaotic behavior that 463 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:11,170 the scientists would then interpret as 464 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:14,450 an artifact a failure of the model and 465 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:16,490 so the models the complex systems were 466 00:22:21,850 --> 00:22:19,250 thrown out suddenly they could be 467 00:22:23,790 --> 00:22:21,860 understood even though not predictive 468 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:23,800 they could be understood to a degree 469 00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:27,530 through the new teachings of chaos 470 00:22:32,860 --> 00:22:30,080 theory so the practical implication was 471 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:32,870 that modeling complex systems becomes 472 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:36,650 possible now as we take this kind of 473 00:22:42,270 --> 00:22:38,710 mathematical model for complex systems 474 00:22:46,990 --> 00:22:42,280 upstairs from physical systems like 475 00:22:48,460 --> 00:22:47,000 planet of planet Earth our climate into 476 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:48,470 the realm of consciousness and then 477 00:22:53,290 --> 00:22:50,450 obviously consciousness has a lot of 478 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:53,300 parts for one thing if you think of the 479 00:22:58,740 --> 00:22:56,450 individual consciousness of 6 billion 480 00:23:02,500 --> 00:22:58,750 people on the planet being somehow 481 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:02,510 knitted together through communication 482 00:23:05,770 --> 00:23:05,330 by reading writing cell phones World 483 00:23:10,420 --> 00:23:05,780 Wide Web 484 00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:10,430 etc into a complex system then obviously 485 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:12,260 that complex system is going to have 486 00:23:19,630 --> 00:23:15,410 very chaotic behavior and the techniques 487 00:23:21,550 --> 00:23:19,640 of chaos theory and modeling complex 488 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:21,560 systems could be applied to 489 00:23:27,670 --> 00:23:23,930 consciousness and that of course has 490 00:23:30,490 --> 00:23:27,680 been carried out as a research program 491 00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:30,500 by a number of people about which I've 492 00:23:35,140 --> 00:23:32,920 written a book by the way modeling 493 00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:35,150 consciousness using these techniques of 494 00:23:43,420 --> 00:23:39,740 chaos theory called demystifying the 495 00:23:46,020 --> 00:23:43,430 Aakash Aakash being a Sanskrit word for 496 00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:46,030 this multi-leveled consciousness 497 00:23:49,210 --> 00:23:47,360 fastening you know 498 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:49,220 I didn't know much about that I'll have 499 00:23:53,950 --> 00:23:52,250 to delve into that that book but I also 500 00:23:56,230 --> 00:23:53,960 want to I want to switch gears for a 501 00:23:57,970 --> 00:23:56,240 little bit Ralph for a long time you've 502 00:24:00,010 --> 00:23:57,980 been associated with psychedelics you've 503 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:00,020 written about them spoken about using 504 00:24:04,450 --> 00:24:02,390 them and our featured quite prominently 505 00:24:07,930 --> 00:24:04,460 in the film from a few years back 506 00:24:11,169 --> 00:24:07,940 DMT the spirit molecule what do you 507 00:24:15,130 --> 00:24:11,179 think the psychedelic experience tells 508 00:24:17,919 --> 00:24:15,140 us about this mind equal brain equation 509 00:24:20,650 --> 00:24:17,929 we've been talking about I think you've 510 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:20,660 already told us that you're moving way 511 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:23,690 past mind equals brain but what in 512 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:25,730 particular do you think psychedelics 513 00:24:32,610 --> 00:24:28,910 brings to that a discussion for me 514 00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:32,620 personally the psychedelic experience 515 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:36,140 that I mean there was a wave of 516 00:24:41,169 --> 00:24:39,410 popularity of psychedelics in the 1960s 517 00:24:45,250 --> 00:24:41,179 associated with the hip culture 518 00:24:49,049 --> 00:24:45,260 so-called and that affected me at the at 519 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:49,059 the time so I had an experience that 520 00:24:56,169 --> 00:24:53,210 many of my colleagues had but not a 521 00:25:00,159 --> 00:24:56,179 majority or anything and for me 522 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:00,169 personally that gave the idea that 523 00:25:07,270 --> 00:25:02,770 there's more to consciousness than 524 00:25:10,140 --> 00:25:07,280 ordinary consensual consciousness why 525 00:25:12,610 --> 00:25:10,150 necessarily because some materialists 526 00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,620 scientists would say no it's just 527 00:25:17,289 --> 00:25:14,480 accessing another part of your brain and 528 00:25:18,669 --> 00:25:17,299 imaginal part that is able to create 529 00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:18,679 things and there really isn't any 530 00:25:28,090 --> 00:25:21,470 mystery there why why does it for you 531 00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:28,100 seem to indicate that there is more it's 532 00:25:34,690 --> 00:25:31,400 impossible to counter somebody else's 533 00:25:37,450 --> 00:25:34,700 theory of my personal experience and I 534 00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:37,460 can't prove anything I can only say that 535 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:41,750 through my experience I gained the 536 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:45,650 fantasy that things are connected 537 00:25:56,140 --> 00:25:49,730 through the immaterial field which is 538 00:25:58,180 --> 00:25:56,150 beyond science at present and this is of 539 00:26:01,619 --> 00:25:58,190 course it could all be a delusion I 540 00:26:05,399 --> 00:26:01,629 can't say it isn't but anyway 541 00:26:09,599 --> 00:26:05,409 this idea of fantasy or psychically real 542 00:26:14,099 --> 00:26:09,609 or whatever had a big effect on my 543 00:26:16,139 --> 00:26:14,109 professional work because I started you 544 00:26:19,619 --> 00:26:16,149 know I had during my psychedelic 545 00:26:21,299 --> 00:26:19,629 experiences I had how the feeling that I 546 00:26:26,099 --> 00:26:21,309 understood them mathematically because 547 00:26:29,940 --> 00:26:26,109 of my training I you know i imaged my 548 00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:29,950 experience using mathematical tools and 549 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:33,940 so I could see I became convinced by 550 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:36,690 these experiences in the 1960s that 551 00:26:45,389 --> 00:26:40,450 mathematics could actually be used to 552 00:26:49,139 --> 00:26:45,399 help explore these so-called paranormal 553 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:49,149 effects that that I experienced as real 554 00:26:57,810 --> 00:26:52,330 has kind of more more real and ordinary 555 00:27:00,209 --> 00:26:57,820 reality that's the characteristic of the 556 00:27:02,269 --> 00:27:00,219 psychedelic experience especially have 557 00:27:05,639 --> 00:27:02,279 several psychedelic experiences this 558 00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:05,649 this illusion may become stronger and 559 00:27:10,639 --> 00:27:08,169 stronger that there is a kind of feeling 560 00:27:14,909 --> 00:27:10,649 of reality about the altered 561 00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:14,919 consciousness because of the way things 562 00:27:21,930 --> 00:27:17,440 hang together and there's intelligence 563 00:27:24,959 --> 00:27:21,940 is revealed it may be as many people 564 00:27:29,219 --> 00:27:24,969 claim a shortcut to mystical experience 565 00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:29,229 that other people historically have have 566 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:33,070 explored more using meditation or 567 00:27:39,450 --> 00:27:37,330 austerities like fasting and so on what 568 00:27:42,479 --> 00:27:39,460 are you familiar with some of the recent 569 00:27:44,999 --> 00:27:42,489 research work that's been done by dr. 570 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:45,009 Robin Kerr heart Harris and dr. David 571 00:27:53,579 --> 00:27:48,809 Nutt in the UK where they actually did 572 00:27:57,089 --> 00:27:53,589 fMRI scans of folks who had ingested 573 00:27:59,159 --> 00:27:57,099 psilocybin and their finding was quite 574 00:28:00,539 --> 00:27:59,169 surprising I think it does maybe provide 575 00:28:02,099 --> 00:28:00,549 the beginnings of some of that 576 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:02,109 scientific evidence for what you're 577 00:28:05,489 --> 00:28:02,769 talking about 578 00:28:09,779 --> 00:28:05,499 because what they found was that instead 579 00:28:13,619 --> 00:28:09,789 of an excitation in the brain there was 580 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:13,629 a reduced firing of the brain kind of 581 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:14,450 consistent 582 00:28:18,820 --> 00:28:16,730 with some of the data we get back from 583 00:28:20,650 --> 00:28:18,830 the near-death experience science that 584 00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:20,660 says hey these people are flatlined and 585 00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:22,840 yet they're having the most profound 586 00:28:30,670 --> 00:28:27,440 conscious experience of their life so it 587 00:28:33,490 --> 00:28:30,680 supports this idea that maybe this brain 588 00:28:36,580 --> 00:28:33,500 is more of a filter to this a doorway to 589 00:28:38,770 --> 00:28:36,590 this larger consciousness are you are 590 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:38,780 you familiar with that or would you know 591 00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:40,810 I'm not it sounds fascinating because 592 00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:45,620 you know after my experiences in the 593 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:48,790 1960s and then going on since then with 594 00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:51,710 meditation and also reading about other 595 00:28:57,610 --> 00:28:53,510 people's experience and talking with 596 00:29:00,940 --> 00:28:57,620 people about their experience I you know 597 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:00,950 I am my intuition my feeling that the 598 00:29:11,470 --> 00:29:07,730 mind is is not in the brain grew year by 599 00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:11,480 year stronger so the the idea that this 600 00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:13,760 sort of altered consciousness could be 601 00:29:19,420 --> 00:29:16,880 associated with reduced activity in the 602 00:29:21,820 --> 00:29:19,430 biological neural map is is very 603 00:29:25,710 --> 00:29:21,830 supportive there remains of the mystery 604 00:29:29,850 --> 00:29:25,720 which honestly borrows my mind that by 605 00:29:34,090 --> 00:29:29,860 by eating some chemical some 606 00:29:37,810 --> 00:29:34,100 neuropeptide or neurotransmitter or 607 00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:37,820 something that they eat a chemical which 608 00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:42,350 is has been manufactured by a plant like 609 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:48,190 a mushroom and and then you have this 610 00:29:54,730 --> 00:29:52,610 altered state of consciousness and it 611 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:54,740 boggles the mind because it shows that 612 00:30:00,340 --> 00:29:57,370 there is the intimate connection between 613 00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:00,350 the biological neural map and the 614 00:30:05,470 --> 00:30:03,110 physical brain and consciousness and no 615 00:30:07,150 --> 00:30:05,480 matter how separated the cosmic 616 00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:07,160 consciousness or the collective 617 00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:10,540 unconscious might be from an individual 618 00:30:16,150 --> 00:30:12,830 biological environment nevertheless 619 00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:16,160 there's some pathway of connection that 620 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:20,780 involves the the chemistry of a 621 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:23,210 biological cell do you have any 622 00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:25,850 philosophical problems with the idea 623 00:30:28,980 --> 00:30:26,750 that 624 00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:28,990 we're kind of saying the answer lies 625 00:30:35,260 --> 00:30:32,510 outside here in this plant I mean does 626 00:30:36,820 --> 00:30:35,270 that create any challenges in terms of 627 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:36,830 we're talking about this higher order 628 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:39,530 consciousness or really personal develop 629 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:41,450 in some way and we're saying the answer 630 00:30:46,930 --> 00:30:44,330 is outside of us it's something we have 631 00:30:50,610 --> 00:30:46,940 to ingest at any philosophical concerns 632 00:30:53,649 --> 00:30:50,620 along as long no I think it's great I 633 00:30:58,450 --> 00:30:53,659 you know it's a mystery it's it's 634 00:31:01,840 --> 00:30:58,460 paranormal already the you know it's 635 00:31:04,659 --> 00:31:01,850 mysterious how drugs work to combat 636 00:31:08,740 --> 00:31:04,669 disease its mysterious how the immune 637 00:31:11,890 --> 00:31:08,750 system is able to to cure an individual 638 00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:11,900 of tuberculosis I mean it's it's amazing 639 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:15,710 I have to tell you that the day I met 640 00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:17,530 Terence Mckenna 641 00:31:25,330 --> 00:31:23,120 in 1972 our belief in worlds in the fall 642 00:31:28,899 --> 00:31:25,340 of 1972 when I was standing on a street 643 00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:28,909 corner in in Santa Cruz and a friend 644 00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:31,190 drove by and said get in the car line to 645 00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:32,900 meet somebody and took me on a drive 646 00:31:38,770 --> 00:31:36,580 that took two hours to Berkeley and 647 00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:38,780 introduced me to Terence Mckenna 648 00:31:45,130 --> 00:31:42,980 who was who showed me a mushroom 649 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:45,140 psilocybin mushroom growing you know 650 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:48,370 like a flower pot on his desk 651 00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:52,250 and he had the idea of course he was 652 00:31:56,620 --> 00:31:54,710 thinking about how the ingestion of a 653 00:31:59,200 --> 00:31:56,630 psychedelic mushroom could actually give 654 00:32:03,779 --> 00:31:59,210 you an altered state of consciousness so 655 00:32:08,350 --> 00:32:03,789 he he shared with me his theory that the 656 00:32:13,029 --> 00:32:08,360 mushroom spore was a visitor from space 657 00:32:16,029 --> 00:32:13,039 and that the spore was covered with a 658 00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:16,039 protective coating that was opaque to 659 00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:20,240 ultraviolet that allowed the the DNA in 660 00:32:29,049 --> 00:32:24,200 the mushroom sport to survive a journey 661 00:32:33,250 --> 00:32:29,059 through space that the the mushroom 662 00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:33,260 spore had been invaded a planet Earth 663 00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:37,120 and that the mycelial mat of these 664 00:32:42,340 --> 00:32:39,980 mushroom colonies all over the 665 00:32:45,940 --> 00:32:42,350 planet was actually the intelligence 666 00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:45,950 that was guiding the emergence of human 667 00:32:56,380 --> 00:32:51,230 species from from primates into what we 668 00:33:03,039 --> 00:32:56,390 are today the modern Homo sapiens so 669 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:03,049 this is not as woowoo as channeling from 670 00:33:07,419 --> 00:33:04,850 a Pleiades 671 00:33:11,409 --> 00:33:07,429 but scientifically as pretty is pretty 672 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:11,419 far out anyway it goes in the direction 673 00:33:17,140 --> 00:33:14,410 of let us say an experiment 674 00:33:19,060 --> 00:33:17,150 experimenting with the idea that the 675 00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:19,070 intelligence that we have is in the 676 00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:21,230 mushroom our accounts eventually he 677 00:33:27,250 --> 00:33:24,080 wrote a book on this subject called food 678 00:33:31,030 --> 00:33:27,260 of the gods where the acquisition of 679 00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:31,040 language by by primates hundred thousand 680 00:33:36,340 --> 00:33:33,200 years ago or whatever that this was a 681 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:36,350 correlate of eating the psychedelic 682 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:41,570 mushrooms and in fact I think is 683 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:44,330 widespread today in archeology and 684 00:33:49,260 --> 00:33:46,730 anthropology the idea that there is a 685 00:33:55,810 --> 00:33:49,270 role of psychedelics in the simultaneous 686 00:34:00,640 --> 00:33:55,820 emergence of art and religion and speech 687 00:34:03,190 --> 00:34:00,650 and so on in our Paleolithic prehistory 688 00:34:05,620 --> 00:34:03,200 I did want to talk in a little bit of 689 00:34:07,950 --> 00:34:05,630 time that we have left about a couple of 690 00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:07,960 different things if we could one is the 691 00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:10,250 evolution of consciousness something 692 00:34:14,980 --> 00:34:12,080 you've written about and talked about a 693 00:34:17,020 --> 00:34:14,990 lot and it's become almost cliche that 694 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:17,030 this is happening that there is some 695 00:34:22,210 --> 00:34:19,490 evolution of consciousness but I have to 696 00:34:24,899 --> 00:34:22,220 wonder is that about the whole topic of 697 00:34:27,820 --> 00:34:24,909 evolution when we start talking about 698 00:34:29,889 --> 00:34:27,830 consciousness being outside of our brain 699 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:29,899 and then when we start talking about 700 00:34:34,119 --> 00:34:31,490 some of the problems we're obviously 701 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:34,129 going to have an understanding time in 702 00:34:38,619 --> 00:34:36,649 our relationship to time and when we 703 00:34:40,570 --> 00:34:38,629 bring into the equation some of the 704 00:34:42,580 --> 00:34:40,580 paranormal phenomena you know one of the 705 00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:42,590 guests we've had on our show is a guy 706 00:34:48,879 --> 00:34:45,590 named Andy Paquette published a book a 707 00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:48,889 very fascinating book he's a he has 708 00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:51,350 lucid dreams and he has precognitive 709 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:53,359 dreams and he's recorded these for last 710 00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:54,010 20 years 711 00:34:57,300 --> 00:34:55,720 and he's recorded many that have been 712 00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:57,310 independently verified 713 00:35:02,460 --> 00:35:00,640 I mean if and this is well known it's so 714 00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:02,470 well known but it's not accepted by 715 00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:04,960 science of course but if there's such a 716 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:07,390 thing as a precognitive dream then 717 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:09,250 that's a it kind of calls into question 718 00:35:13,950 --> 00:35:11,530 a lot of these ideas we have about time 719 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:13,960 and that of course calls into question a 720 00:35:18,090 --> 00:35:15,570 lot of these ideas we have about 721 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:18,100 evolution including the evolution of 722 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:22,170 consciousness so when we move into this 723 00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:25,810 beyond materialism beyond mind equal 724 00:35:30,830 --> 00:35:28,480 brain how do we keep our how do we keep 725 00:35:33,380 --> 00:35:30,840 our bearings at all in terms of 726 00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:33,390 understanding these things in a way that 727 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:36,910 really has as meaning for us in the way 728 00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:39,490 we've been accustomed to I know it was 729 00:35:49,850 --> 00:35:44,320 my psychedelic experience or some other 730 00:35:53,970 --> 00:35:49,860 that liberated me from belief in in 731 00:35:57,780 --> 00:35:53,980 science what religious faith in science 732 00:36:04,770 --> 00:35:57,790 but it's somehow within science that has 733 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:04,780 given us a false impression of time the 734 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:08,370 idea that the past is all determined and 735 00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:11,770 the future is undetermined and there is 736 00:36:17,250 --> 00:36:15,310 some sharp boundary a membrane between 737 00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:17,260 the past in the future which is 738 00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:20,190 advancing through time like slicing 739 00:36:27,930 --> 00:36:24,240 cheese one slice at a time and and 740 00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:27,940 putting a slice of the future into the 741 00:36:33,350 --> 00:36:30,190 past so this kind of linear progression 742 00:36:36,660 --> 00:36:33,360 of time is served built in the basis of 743 00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:36,670 science the scientific method and and so 744 00:36:39,930 --> 00:36:38,740 on but everyone's personal experience of 745 00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:39,940 time is rather different 746 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:43,680 and especially lots of people have had 747 00:36:50,220 --> 00:36:46,810 precognitive dreams including being 15 748 00:36:53,610 --> 00:36:50,230 so this particular kind of paranormal 749 00:36:55,970 --> 00:36:53,620 phenomenon like we have telekinesis 750 00:37:00,300 --> 00:36:55,980 telepathy I mean there are all these 751 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:00,310 areas of was a paranormal phenomenon 752 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:04,450 that advanced scientists like Rupert 753 00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:06,730 Sheldrake and being rate in our 754 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:08,190 exploring today 755 00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:12,609 these are easy compared to the time 756 00:37:21,089 --> 00:37:17,260 paradox sort of paranormal phenomenon 757 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:21,099 like precognitive dreams so that's the 758 00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:24,130 more difficult so I have felt as I went 759 00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:27,220 along in my career since the 1960s that 760 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:29,920 making mathematical models for array of 761 00:37:38,940 --> 00:37:35,890 reality in which time presents different 762 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:38,950 aspects not manual models of 763 00:37:43,339 --> 00:37:40,570 consciousness in which a precognitive 764 00:37:45,630 --> 00:37:43,349 dream would be explained by the model 765 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:45,640 this has been important to me 766 00:37:51,740 --> 00:37:49,570 2:15 so in fact you know in my book in 767 00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:51,750 mystifying the archive shows or in 768 00:38:02,040 --> 00:37:55,089 jointly with my Indian friend she she 769 00:38:06,870 --> 00:38:02,050 Roy a quantum physicist I have included 770 00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:06,880 there some mathematical models for for 771 00:38:14,970 --> 00:38:09,160 this particular paranormal effect the 772 00:38:17,849 --> 00:38:14,980 time paradox effect in which there is as 773 00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:17,859 they believed in India some kind of 774 00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:21,910 object beyond time will challenge 775 00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:26,320 mechanical that the eschaton at the edge 776 00:38:33,530 --> 00:38:29,800 of time mathematical model in which 777 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:33,540 there is this timeless thing and from it 778 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:36,730 precipitates ordinary reality in a way 779 00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:39,010 that gives the illusion of the serial 780 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:42,670 advance of ordinary time so mathematical 781 00:38:50,940 --> 00:38:46,810 models can help you understand your own 782 00:38:53,250 --> 00:38:50,950 experience when it's being denied by 783 00:38:55,620 --> 00:38:53,260 Orthodox science I think that's 784 00:38:57,630 --> 00:38:55,630 important especially for children who do 785 00:39:01,109 --> 00:38:57,640 have these experiences and then and 786 00:39:03,329 --> 00:39:01,119 learn to suppress them great I think 787 00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:03,339 that's probably a wonderful way to kind 788 00:39:08,099 --> 00:39:05,950 of wrap things up in the couple of 789 00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:08,109 minutes we have left Ralph can you tell 790 00:39:12,630 --> 00:39:10,510 folks the best way to learn about some 791 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:12,640 of the things that you're up to and some 792 00:39:20,430 --> 00:39:14,730 of the great books that you've written 793 00:39:30,030 --> 00:39:25,050 things and and could be explored there 794 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:30,040 so Ralph - Abraham gorgs then there's a 795 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:32,290 menu on the left hand side of a home 796 00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:38,010 page with items like books articles 797 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:41,710 lecture videos and so on and just 798 00:39:46,050 --> 00:39:43,450 browsing around through the list of 799 00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:46,060 things that would be the easiest way to 800 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:49,750 get an idea of the variety of my 801 00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:52,569 thinking and writing the list of 802 00:39:58,650 --> 00:39:54,700 articles for example there's about 130 803 00:40:02,640 --> 00:39:58,660 of them they're the posted as as as 804 00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:02,650 freely readable files great with joint 805 00:40:08,010 --> 00:40:04,480 descriptions I think that's but that'd 806 00:40:10,319 --> 00:40:08,020 be the way to start learning golf great 807 00:40:12,359 --> 00:40:10,329 great well it's certainly been been 808 00:40:13,589 --> 00:40:12,369 interesting and love diving into the 809 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:13,599 math stuff in the way that you've 810 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:16,930 connected is just truly amazing and so 811 00:40:21,450 --> 00:40:19,690 imaginative thanks so much we have a lot 812 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:21,460 to think about and discuss and thanks 813 00:40:26,730 --> 00:40:24,609 again for joining me on skeptic oh thank 814 00:40:28,430 --> 00:40:26,740 you so much Alex for invited you know 815 00:40:31,380 --> 00:40:28,440 really enormous ly enjoyed this thanks 816 00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:31,390 again to dr. Ralph Abraham for joining 817 00:40:34,740 --> 00:40:33,250 me today on skeptic Oh a couple of 818 00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:34,750 questions I'd like to tee up for you 819 00:40:38,309 --> 00:40:36,430 from this interview that we might want 820 00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:38,319 to discuss on the forum or on the 821 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:40,000 website and there are two very different 822 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:41,890 questions the first has to do with this 823 00:40:47,490 --> 00:40:44,890 idea of evolution of consciousness 824 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:47,500 because it strikes me that we all assume 825 00:40:52,980 --> 00:40:50,410 that consciousness is evolving in a way 826 00:40:55,530 --> 00:40:52,990 that we understand and we have a way of 827 00:40:57,690 --> 00:40:55,540 looking back at history at science and 828 00:40:59,609 --> 00:40:57,700 say ah or evolve and consciousness is 829 00:41:02,579 --> 00:40:59,619 evolving but I'd like to turn that into 830 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:02,589 more of a real question what evidence do 831 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:05,050 we have that consciousness is evolving 832 00:41:10,020 --> 00:41:08,170 in this way that we think it is and if 833 00:41:11,609 --> 00:41:10,030 it is evolving where is it evolving 834 00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,619 towards and what's the evidence for that 835 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:13,680 so that's question number one and 836 00:41:18,569 --> 00:41:15,910 question number two has to do with 837 00:41:20,099 --> 00:41:18,579 psychedelics as you know dr. Abraham has 838 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:20,109 been associated along with Terence 839 00:41:24,930 --> 00:41:21,970 Mckenna the use of psychedelics 840 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:24,940 mushrooms DMT all that stuff and there's 841 00:41:30,030 --> 00:41:27,010 this implied assumption in there that 842 00:41:32,460 --> 00:41:30,040 hey it's a good idea to perturb your 843 00:41:33,930 --> 00:41:32,470 consciousness as I think Terence Mckenna 844 00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:33,940 once said so I thought it'd be 845 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:34,630 interesting to 846 00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:37,210 hash that out because the implication 847 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:39,400 seems to be if we take it a certain way 848 00:41:44,670 --> 00:41:42,130 that this perturbing of consciousness is 849 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:44,680 part of this evolution of consciousness 850 00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:48,490 thing do psychedelics play a key role in 851 00:41:54,299 --> 00:41:51,430 the evolution of consciousness and is 852 00:41:56,730 --> 00:41:54,309 this idea of perturbing consciousness 853 00:41:59,670 --> 00:41:56,740 and stirring it up something that is 854 00:42:02,009 --> 00:41:59,680 necessary for this for the development 855 00:42:04,529 --> 00:42:02,019 of individual consciousness or for the 856 00:42:06,660 --> 00:42:04,539 evolution of consciousness in general I 857 00:42:09,630 --> 00:42:06,670 have a lot of mixed feelings about this 858 00:42:12,089 --> 00:42:09,640 so I'm really looking forward to saying 859 00:42:13,980 --> 00:42:12,099 what some of your ideas are now of 860 00:42:16,349 --> 00:42:13,990 course the place to share your thoughts 861 00:42:20,460 --> 00:42:16,359 your ideas your opinions is on the 862 00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:20,470 skeptic Oh website it's at SK EPT Iko 863 00:42:25,349 --> 00:42:22,960 com you can leave a comment right there 864 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:25,359 or you can click on over to the forum 865 00:42:29,759 --> 00:42:27,970 and join the forum and dive into the 866 00:42:31,019 --> 00:42:29,769 dialogue there of course while you're at 867 00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:31,029 the website you're gonna want to check 868 00:42:36,059 --> 00:42:33,609 out our more than 200 previous shows of 869 00:42:38,849 --> 00:42:36,069 skeptic oh they're all there for free 870 00:42:40,529 --> 00:42:38,859 download if you enjoy them please tell 871 00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:40,539 your friends to tell your community 872 00:42:44,490 --> 00:42:42,880 about them like so many of you have well 873 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:44,500 that's going to do it for today I have a 874 00:42:48,420 --> 00:42:46,450 number of interesting shows coming up I 875 00:42:51,089 --> 00:42:48,430 hope you'll stay with me for all of that